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Barquiel
Def-Con 1
Posts:57
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| 05/01/2008 8:28 AM |
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I'm a traditional artist however I know a lot about the Digital arts and sice this subject comes up a lot in conversation,and fourm topics I figured why not have an open Fourm on the subject. So here are some pros and cons with facts.
All of these facts will cover all forms of art not just comic book.
Drawing
Eraser vs Undo
Eraser - The eraser has unlimited undo if you draw in stages of pencil going from an F,4H,H,2B if you do this you wont have any problems erasing and have a very clean final drawing
Undo Tool - Most programs have limited undo and if you mess up and go back to it later you might not be able to fix it easily or not at all
Inking Vs Dinking
Inking - Most people use a brush or a quill pen, you get really nice flow and random greatness it also makes things pop out more and give things depth. You can use white pain or white out to fix mistakes or to tighten lines.
Dinking- You lose the flow and a lot of things look very flat and depth is some times lost. Their is no random greatness as every thing is set with brush size, some programs mimic brushes but it is not prefected and a lot of artists prefer inking or Dinking.
Paint vs Dpainting
Paint - You have better colors and a lot more colors to chose from you also have options to use diff mediums in the same painting to really make things pop.
Dpainting - You have a set or paints with limited mixing properties and a interesting smir tool. The pigments are some times off and you can spend a lot of hours just getting the one color you really need and have to try and find.
Drawing vs DigDrawing
Drawing - You'll have lines that wont disaper and might have to buy a mechanical eraser to have a fully clean and tight look to your final drawing. Your lines are much smoother and you can use a pencil to get a much more real look.
DigDrawing - You have less fight getting your final piece done. You can smudge and highlight then change contract, and fill tools to make it mimic ink for a faster turn around.
End Results
Traditional- The peices tend to have much more depth and honestly look a lot better. Also the art community will embrace you with open arms and you can have a greater name for your self and be able to charge much more for you art sooner.
Digital - The peices usually lack depth and almost everything looks flat most of the time. The artist community shuns you for using the digital way most of the time. Your name is harder to get out their and you'll have to charge much less for you works altho you can create more works faster (Sometimes).
To the buyer
Traditional- The buyer of the art loves the traditional works becuase he can see the lines and the strugle of how the peice was made. The buyer can also show it off to friends and say check out the work on my wall. You can look at the peice at all angles and it still looks great. When they touch the paper its has texture from the pencils,pain, and ink which really brings the work out.
Digital - The buyer can make prints or easily steal your work becuase of Copy/Paste and just print it out. When shown to friends it lacks the excitement of a final work. Most digital works are not fung on wall but rather stuck in boxes and brought out when some one asks to see it. The work generally has no depth and must be looked at in a certain way other wise the gloss on the page really messes it up.
My Own Opinions on the subject.
Personally traditional works are the best you can charge more, your accepted by other artists, and your name gets out their much faster. You can charge thousands of dallors for your drawings as opposed to $30 for a print out of a mass product.
The skill involed in traditional art I believe is ten times harder than digital and you must hone your ability much more than a digital artist. With Digital art the computer can auto fix you problems and even make your not so great art look great.
I dont think this war between trad/dig will ever end until tress no longer exist.
What do you all think on the subject.
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atomicdani
Def-Con 1
Posts:59
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| 05/19/2008 10:13 PM |
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There are no such things as facts, just lies that are easily backed up
or something. LOLOLOLOL :D
I used to prefer Digital, but more recently I have gotten into traditional...it just depends on what I wanna do I guess. |
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Something wicked this way comes |
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Azdack
Def-Con 1
Posts:1
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| 05/21/2008 4:46 PM |
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The computer is just a pencil or paintbrush that you have to plug in.
I don't know why some people can't see that.
-Eraser vs. Undo:
Eraser- Hands 0n is great. But will never get everything back to white paper and if you do it too much you'll eventually eat a hole in the surface. Plus depending on they type you're using you get dust.
Undo- 99 levels of undo, save as you go, back to white board and no holes.
Winner: Undo
-Inking vs. Dinking:
Inking: The feel of a brush or pen is nice when drawing, I like it.
But water spill , ink spill. I can get the same "variation" using a micron. White gouache doesn't always cover and tends to grey out over
time and IS NOTICEABLE. Ink may vary in darkness so you may have to go over it more than once. wrinkled paper or board is a possibility.
Dinking: Again many different ways to achieve
"randomness", if you have a Wacom or the like you can have the hands on feel. Blacks are always black.
Winner: I call this a Draw.
-Painting vs. Dpainting:
Painting: Rich color, hands on feel again. Infinite color variation.
Prep time, mess and clean up. Not something you can just hop on and off.
DPainting: Same ability to mix infinite colors, wet edges can be made with settings. You're painting, save, you're done. End color depends
on monitor settings and printer quality.
Winner: Painting because of the assured end result.
Drawing vs. DigDrawing: This really is a preference thing. Winner: Both
In the end the big plus to "traditional" creation is that you have an "Original" piece that you can sell for more vs. prints of same.
Digital you just have to designate one as the original and the world must trust you.
Some people like "real" artwork, some don't care.
As far as pricing that is SO variable it's not even worth discussing.
It all boils down to skill, you can have all the filters in the world but the trained and skilled artist is never going to hit the glass ceiling that an artist relying solely on the computer to do the work will. Use everything, all mediums, traditional and digital, learn it all, it won't kill you.
There, that's my two cents. |
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AtomicJohn
Def-Con 2
Posts:143
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| 05/21/2008 8:10 PM |
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| How bout you can't by original digital art? Who want's to buy a print? give me the original anyday. |
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In blackest day, in brightest night,
Beware your fears made into light
Let those who try to stop what's right,
Burn like his power... Sinestro's might!
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Barquiel
Def-Con 1
Posts:57
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| 05/21/2008 9:16 PM |
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Azdack I get what your saying. However alot of what you have mention are nub mistakes such as the eraser bit with eating holes in paper and not being able to get all the pencil erased. If you use light pencils as a base foundation and only use the heavy pencil when you drawing is complete you wont have those problems. As for using white paint for inking that to is a nub mistake as it takes quite a lot of practice to get the white to be real white. The ink however if you use a quality board will not wrinkle and if you know how to load a brush you wont get spills.
Im not a person who hates the pc for art I just dont consider it the best way. Simply becuase at the end of the day your using a computer,hardwear, and software to mimic what you can do by hand and not with a mouse and wacom pen. I leave it to each their own but for me traditional is the only way. |
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AtomicJohn
Def-Con 2
Posts:143
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| 05/22/2008 1:04 PM |
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Posted By Barquiel on 05/21/2008 9:16 PM
Azdack I get what your saying. However alot of what you have mention are nub mistakes such as the eraser bit with eating holes in paper and not being able to get all the pencil erased. If you use light pencils as a base foundation and only use the heavy pencil when you drawing is complete you wont have those problems. As for using white paint for inking that to is a nub mistake as it takes quite a lot of practice to get the white to be real white. The ink however if you use a quality board will not wrinkle and if you know how to load a brush you wont get spills.
Im not a person who hates the pc for art I just dont consider it the best way. Simply becuase at the end of the day your using a computer,hardwear, and software to mimic what you can do by hand and not with a mouse and wacom pen. I leave it to each their own but for me traditional is the only way.
This was great response. I prefer to do everything by hand simply because I am a tactile person and I find it drastically more satisfying to work and feel the paper in my hands just like I will always prefer to read books as opposed to reading text on a pc monitor. |
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In blackest day, in brightest night,
Beware your fears made into light
Let those who try to stop what's right,
Burn like his power... Sinestro's might!
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Barquiel
Def-Con 1
Posts:57
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| 05/22/2008 4:57 PM |
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Thanks AtomicJohn and btw I love your sig...LONG LIVE SINESTRO !!!!!
<---------------------------Huge Lantern Universe Fan :D |
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atomicdani
Def-Con 1
Posts:59
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| 05/22/2008 5:20 PM |
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John, do you do any art, out of curiosity??
Anyways, I like both traditional and digital. They both have pros and cons.
Trad painting requires lots of devoted time (you cant just hop off whenever), is costly, and if you make a mistake it can be difficult to fix it (depending on the mistake). whereas with digital painting mistakes are easily fixed, you dont have to continually buy more paint, brushes, this and that, you can experiment more without the commitment of permenence and you can stop within 5 minutes or 5 hours. AND its cleaner.
however, i tend to find that sketching traditionally allows greater accuracy. Though it isnt as easy as erasing in photoshop, your lines are done more how you want them without having to fix them numerous times as in photoshop. Also, using tools such as rulers and french curves are easier and put more to use.
In my opinion, deciding whether to do a picture digitally or traditionally is dependent on the effect you want achieved. For some projects traditional is the way to go, and others digital is the only way.
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Something wicked this way comes |
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AtomicJohn
Def-Con 2
Posts:143
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| 05/22/2008 6:05 PM |
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I design the looks of all my projects,sketch and do the thumbnail storyboards for all my plots till I can find someone I like more than me to draw them. I paint too but prefer to sculpt when I have the time, funds and space. I also build props and random pieces of Victoriana and stuff.
Working with oils and acyrlics is far more satifying than digital as you can really feel a project taking life in the textures and the very smell of the work. Also I personally like the smell of erasers. and preferr the extra time and effort it takes to rectify mistakes in an oilpainting and other physical mediums. it means a level of dedication to your original idea that can't be found in digital media.
This has nothing to do with being old fashioned it's just how I do things. |
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In blackest day, in brightest night,
Beware your fears made into light
Let those who try to stop what's right,
Burn like his power... Sinestro's might!
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atomicdani
Def-Con 1
Posts:59
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| 05/22/2008 10:31 PM |
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I dont think there is any lack of dedication in digital artwork and it is quite difficult.
The thing that bothers me most is when "traditional" artists talk like digital art is a walk in the park and that its not worthy of being called art. :(
Its like saying that abstract isnt art. Its arguable, but an ignorant and narrow minded argument.
Not saying that thats happening here, but just saying it annoys me. |
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Something wicked this way comes |
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AtomicJohn
Def-Con 2
Posts:143
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| 05/22/2008 11:02 PM |
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| I am not against it either and I like mixed medium personally I am just afraid that people are going to cease to hand develop photographs and experiment with darkrooms because photoshop is easier and that why spend the materials when I can faus oil paint with it as well. The act of hand developing is the art of photography and painting is the same way. I just hope the next generation doesn't disregard an artform that has been evolving on the planet since the first Neanderthal picked up a burnt stick and dragged it across the wall just because it is easier to do it with a computer. |
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In blackest day, in brightest night,
Beware your fears made into light
Let those who try to stop what's right,
Burn like his power... Sinestro's might!
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Barquiel
Def-Con 1
Posts:57
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| 05/23/2008 9:11 AM |
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I do agree that doing somthing digitaly dose take skill and has a learning curve. I think that both forms are viable and are worthy of being called art. However I think that seeing a traditional painting,drawing, and photograph dose convey emotion a lot better. Mostly becuase I think that becuase we are so tech savy we can all see pixels and textures even threw a monitor we can tell when somthing was done digitaly. I also prefer comics that are done digitaly but only the colors. With the comics that are done completly in digital you can truely tell and they all look very flat and have no life at all.
I also dont think that we will ever lose traditional art simply becuase its a culture thing, The only way we would lose the traditional side is if paper became extint(sp?) becuase we tore down to many trees. Altho if we started to have rolling black outs on the entire earth the other side of the coin would be screwed to.
All in all its up to the artist on which he/she prefers altho I will say that anyone reguardless of if they are digital artists or traditional artists should get familliar with both. Howerver if you are digital then you better learn how to draw,paint, and photograph becuase if you do a peice and it lacks that "artist eye" then you are very screwed. |
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Tezuka-freak
Def-Con 1
Posts:36
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| 05/23/2008 1:46 PM |
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I've seen some excellent Dpainting that I could swear was traditional. And when you see art in print or on the screen, the differences aren't much. The huge difference is seeing traditional art in person. I don't think there is much appreciation for seeing art in real life. I guess a lot of blame can be put on modern art, but that's a whole other topic.
Looks are one thing, but Digital is king because it is so much easier to "cheat" digitally. It reminds me of how people are complaining that kids don't learn anything anymore because they can just use the internet to find what they need. Just so, why do you need to learn anatomy when you can bring in a photograph or poser figure and trace or put a filter over it?
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I can't break out forever |
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atomicdani
Def-Con 1
Posts:59
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| 05/23/2008 11:56 PM |
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There are different methods to learn things though. I think older people are just bitter because they had to do it in a more difficult way. So we can take an image and trace over it in photoshop as opposed to having to hire a model and have them pose for use uncomfortably for an hour? We still learn the anatomy, and the model can go do something more worth while: like yoga. lol
We dont have to go to the library anymore to search through piles of books and encyclopedias to learn the complete history of the Hungarian government; we can just go to wikipedia or google and find out from them. We still get the information, we just do less work in finding it.
We are progressing. just as art has progressed from berry-inks and animal blood to oil paints to crayons to digital art. Its an enhancement, an evolution, not something cheap. |
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Something wicked this way comes |
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Barquiel
Def-Con 1
Posts:57
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| 05/24/2008 10:06 AM |
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LOL I dont think anyone is bitter about Digital art since the only place that uses it hardcore are advertising companies, and posters. Art dose change threw the years but I dont believe that digital is at all an easier way to do things, nor will it corner the market in my life time or my kids lifetime. As far as people taking a photo and traceing it I'll let you all in on a secret....if all you can do is trace wether its on paper or on a pc you will not get a job in the arts, and if you do you wont keep the job for very long. Not to mention if you take the time to learn anatomy guess what you wont need models ever. You can simply take what you know about anatomy and draw in any angle,posistion, or style with out the use of a model.
To be honest I think the younger generation has a huge misconception about the art world, such as if you can't draw you can't draw on a pc either. IF you can't paint then you can't paint digitaly why is this becuase your useing a program that mimics a real persons hand and tools.
If you were to ask anyone in the art industry you people would understand that you must have a ton of talent to get into the fields. You have to keep an eye on tech not becuasse you could be replaced but to see you can save time with something new. They also know that just about everyone who dose only digital work has no aperciation for the past and they lack serious art classes. If you want to create artwork with digital thats cool but even if you honestly believe that it is better than everything else before it and that the computer dose most of the work for you. Just know that the pc can't help you with composistion,dynamic poses,art style, and help give you that unitiy that you are looking for. |
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Barquiel
Def-Con 1
Posts:57
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| 05/24/2008 10:41 AM |
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This will be the last reply to this topic, I was hopeing for a somthing more civil and has more of a conversation but this thread has turned into a whos way is better which is exactly what I didnt want to have happen.
To all artists wether they be digital or traditional. First off the digital way is not a huge advacement in the arts its not even a new movement, why is that? Simply becuase your useing a program to do eveything that your hand can do naturaly.
Wacom board - No matter how you slice it, it is hardware that can mimic paper,canvas, or any other surface you need. It is not better than these things becuase at the end of the day you have to still know the art terms, undstand the elements of art and use them just has you would on everything else.
Wacom Pen - This is still a pencil,airbrush,paintbrush, quill pen its just an all in one tool. Its also nothing special it still takes a traditional skill to make anything look good.
Art Programs - These act as paints,pencil types, and ink types also nothing special becuase you can just buy everything you need. And guess what it still takes skill to use.
If you want to trace, then trace it dosent matter if its on tracing paper or digitaly its the exact same thing. And yes both will be rejected from the art community.
Everyone needs to realize this one MAJOR thing. At the end of the day doing somthing Digital is just as hard, technical, and frustrating as traditional why becuase your using a program and tools that mimic what traditional dose. Your not special becuase you did it on paper, and your not special becuase you did it on a monitor. The only thing that makes you special is your TALENT not the tools you use.
And if anyone wants to try to call me out on this, they can try but first understand I AM a professional artist and I CAN and DO use both digital and traditional means. I prefer traditional becuase its easier for me. I do however color things digitaly if its for a comic, but I could just as well paint.
Heres a list of what I do professionaly
Tokyo Pop - Inker
Freelance Inker - Ive done a few Indy books
Painter - Pin-ups, fantasy painting, landscapes both si-fi/realistic/fantasy
How much do I make ?
Inker - 100 interior 150 cover (NOT NEG)
Freelance inker - 50 interior 100 cover (Indy books dont make a ton money so I had to cut my rates)
Paintings - Any where from $300 to $1,000
People take the advice from some one in the industry pls. You can't do anything digitaly if you first dont at least understand it traditional it's just that simple. |
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Tezuka-freak
Def-Con 1
Posts:36
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| 05/25/2008 9:20 AM |
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I think the discussion had been really civil, at least for the internet ;)
I also don't want people to construe via my last post that I think digital is less valid. The whole digital world, not just making art but music, info, etc. really is an astonishing revolution. Conflicts, confusions, mistakes are bound to appear whenever there is rapid change. No one really knows where we are headed, but the prevailing thrust always seems to be the empowering of the individual. Those with talent and skill will always rise but the amateur artist doesn't have to spend nearly as much time and energy to make a decent image as he would have in traditional art. Overall, that's a good thing. |
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I can't break out forever |
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AtomicJohn
Def-Con 2
Posts:143
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| 05/26/2008 9:57 AM |
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| It really comes down to what you prefer. I have stated all my opinions basically come down to the tactile enjoyment of the process. I know people in the Victoriana crowd who prefer degeorotypes to photography. It all comes down to what works for you. Digital is not "cheating" unless you are a swiper. There are plenty of swipers in the non-digital crowd too though. Any way you look at it it's subjective. beauty is in the eye of the beholder at any time not just you. Anyone in the industry deserves your respect at least since it's not easy to get where they are. |
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In blackest day, in brightest night,
Beware your fears made into light
Let those who try to stop what's right,
Burn like his power... Sinestro's might!
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